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14 October 2009 @ 09:36 pm
Padmé Amidala in The Clone Wars  
I just saw the preview of the Clone Wars episode "Senate Spy". In my last post, I mentioned that I like the Clone Wars TV show because (among other things) it confirms some of my interpretations of the Star Wars prequels, and among them, my interpretation of Padmé's character. This article and preview of episode 2x04 makes some interesting points about her.

First of all, Rush Clovis, the Senator she is spying on is a former "flame" and "love interest" (gasp). There go all the romantic theories that Padmé never had a boyfriend before Anakin, that she was single and chaste while waiting for her One True Love and Destined Soul Mate to grow up. That between her first crush/kiss when she was 12 and her marriage to Anakin when she was 24, she never liked, dated, or (probably) slept with a man. [end sarcasm] Honestly? Good riddance to the pure/virginal angel!Padmé trope.

Secondly, not only is Padmé no pure/virginal angel, she's clearly not a prude either. Did you see AOTC? That black leather corset when she's alone with a teenage boy she knows is infatuated with her, and she never blushes or seems uncomfortable with the way he's ogling her. (If you are feeling outraged right now, go back and reread the last sentence, paying attention to what I said as opposed to what you think I said. All I said is that a virgin, or a woman meant to be portrayed as a virgin in a movie, would have blushed at the hungry, sexual looks he's giving her. Yes, the blushing virgin is a stereotype, but this is a movie. Movies are virtually where such stereotypes come from. And Padmé never blushes.)

In fact, in AOTC, of the two of them, Anakin is most likely the pure/virginal one. He is still a teenager. A teenager who grew up in the Jedi Temple and was raised by Obi-Wan, who does seem like a prude. Likewise, in the TCW season 2 preview that shows what Padmé will be wearing on her spying date with Clovis, she gives no sign that she minds or even realizes that her dress... well, she's kind of half-naked, and that's the point. IMO, she acts like a woman confident in her sexuality (which probably, usually, implies experienced). And a woman who is not above showing off her body and using her beauty as a weapon to help the cause she cares about.

And so, another theory has to go down the drain: the theory that Padmé has strong conservative values about marriage and fidelity. At least, if she does have that kind of morals, she is willing to put them aside for "more important" things, like helping the Republic win the war against the Separatists. She accepts to (as the article puts it) willingly and deliberately court the affections of another man right in front of her jealous husband. And she thinks that's acceptable if it's for a cause as important (to her) as investigating a potential traitor among her colleagues.

And she isn't doing it because she has to. She's a Senator. The Jedi Council doesn't have any authority over her. They ask for her help, and she accepts, despite being married and despite or maybe partially because of her husband trying to forbid it.

Catherine Taber says in the interview that Padmé feels she has to prove to herself that her top priority is the Republic. Taber suspects that "underneath it all, her primary allegiance would be to Anakin" but she would never admit it, even to herself, and she never acts like it. The fact is that politics has always been more important to Padmé than love or family. In her own words: "Don't take it personally, Anakin. Duty comes first", and unlike him, she means it, as she proves through her actions. And, as Taber points out, Padmé resents Anakin for distracting her from her "top priority". This is the revolutionary point the CW episode "Senate Spy" makes about Padmé.

I think the second point is how far she would go for the Republic.

I always thought Anakin wasn't the reason she lost the will to live at the end of ROTS. Like she said to Obi-Wan, she knew there was still good in him. She hadn't given up on him. He was a reason to hold on, not to give up on life. So why did she "lose the will to live" anyway? Because of what she loved more than she loved Anakin and her children. Because of what she couldn't live without and what she wouldn't renounce even for Anakin: her political ideals.

So this is how "Senate Spy" confirms my interpretation of Padmé's character: it proves that her love for Anakin was never the defining aspect of her character. There was always something she loved more. And that's what makes her such an atypical and interesting character.

Part two: "Senate Spy" commentary and analysis

 
 
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C.: cw let mechameleon_irony on October 17th, 2009 09:35 pm (UTC)
If she was mourning the loss of the Republic, her own political power and ideals, then yes, I would have liked those scenes much more.

Well, I liked these scenes because I think she was. Except the part about political power. To her, it was never about having power for herself. Being in politics was a sacrifice which she was making to help people. (As for who and what she actually ended up helping, that's a different issue. But her intentions were always noble and unselfish.)

What's to say she wouldn't have sacrificed her children for it as well? Perhaps even to prove a point?

That's an interesting idea. I admit I've never gone this far in any of my stories... The choice would break her for sure, even if she might think she's strong enough to do it. I think she wouldn't be able to live with it. And in what kind of situation could she possibly make such a terrible sacrifice? *is seeing plot bunnies*
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betareject on October 17th, 2009 09:55 pm (UTC)
Re: The only perfect angel is a devil ;)
Its really too bad that people easily brush that fact under the rug =/That they much prefer Padmé as being nothing more than Anakin's shadow...

I like that she was strong and capable of doing what had to be done. Even at the end she still stood up to Vader and held her ground (though she should have laid low and had the kids first before calling him on it but thats me).

Aww but I like your perspective where she died because she believed it would allow the Naboo to have that second chance--that freedom would be able to grow in her absence. That was so powerful.
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C.: padme devil hornschameleon_irony on October 19th, 2009 12:36 am (UTC)
there was a drawing of her with a knife for RotS

Really? That's very interesting. I personally think she would most likely have used it to kill herself, which would have made much more sense than the way she died in ROTS.
aleysiasnape: valentinealeysiasnape on October 18th, 2009 10:39 pm (UTC)
I love your idea! I did watch this episode friday night. And yes I noticed her dress! I was surprised she didn't see the poison on the rim of her cup when she dranked it. It was like he had pretend to drink it and passed it on to her.
C.: cw let mechameleon_irony on October 19th, 2009 12:38 am (UTC)
Her accepting that drink from a known enemy was perplexing. I'm going to post my theories about that in my analysis of this episode.
michiru42: Pensive Padmemichiru42 on October 17th, 2010 07:48 pm (UTC)
Hello! A year late, here I am, invited by you in my recent CW Padmé post. Thanks for telling me about this, I figured I'd start at the beginning, or at least the earliest discussion post I can see. :D

I agree with most if this. Like you, I thought Padmé died from a broken heart over her lost ideals as much as over losing Anakin, though I do think losing him was a big part of it. I posted about this here; basically, as far as I can see, Anakin was the one choice in her entire life that she made with her emotions for herself instead of with her morality for her duty. And it led to the downfall of all civilization; think of the shame and horror. And she had no duty, her life's work, to fall back on, as that had crumbled--she ran to Anakin, clinging to him, because he was literally all she had left and it turned out he'd become a psychopath. Even then she had the strength to reject him, and I think a lot of people who blame her for crying don't understand the kind of character it takes to push away THE ONLY THING IN YOUR LIFE when you have nothing left. I think her love for him meant everything to the woman in her, to her emotional self, but Padmé always put herself after others, after duty, so it makes sense she'd put him second in her life because she put herself second.

Of course, she had the twins, but I wonder if she trusted herself as a mother after how badly she'd misjudged and handled Anakin.

The idea of her resenting Anakin is interesting. I hadn't thought about it, but it makes sense. Padmé knows marriage is a bad choice, and though consciously she's a responsible person who knows it's her own decision and acts accordingly, deep down she probably can't help her petulant Id, yelling at Anakin for getting her into trouble by being so damn irresistible. I wonder if he resents her back, resents that she won't allow him full control of her like he wants?

Also, BTW, I see someone mentioned the picture of Padmé with a knife. In one of the new SW magazines, they mention that in early drafts of the script, Padmé did indeed travel to meet Anakin with the intention of killing him, and it was a plotline that went far enough that storyboards and sketches were drawn up. They don't mention what changed or why, though.
C.: padme3 purple5 handschameleon_irony on October 17th, 2010 08:38 pm (UTC)
I think a lot of people who blame her for crying don't understand the kind of character it takes to push away THE ONLY THING IN YOUR LIFE when you have nothing left

Exactly.

in early drafts of the script, Padmé did indeed travel to meet Anakin with the intention of killing him, and it was a plotline that went far enough that storyboards and sketches were drawn up.

Well, I'm glad they changed it, because it would have made no sense in the light of her earlier characterization. It's a major trait of her character that she refuses to believe how bad things are until she absolutely can't stay in denial anymore (also known as being an excessively optimistic person). Like when Obi-Wan told her those "terrible things", she refused to believe Anakin had changed until she saw it for herself when he started talking about ruling the galaxy. I think a part of her intuitively knew Obi-Wan was right, but she actively rejected it and even got angry with him ("How can you even say that?").

Thank you very much for commenting. :) Like I said, I love discussion because it makes me think more deeply about things.
michiru42: PA Comfortmichiru42 on October 18th, 2010 04:37 am (UTC)
I love discussion for the same reason; Padme is one of my favorite characters in fiction ever, partly because she makes me think about the nature of justice and morality in general. (Which is, of course, the purpose of fairy tales.)

I wonder if Padme's blindness didn't have to do with Anakin more than her own optimism. She always seemed willing to deal with horrible situations however she had to in general (allying with the Gungans to save Naboo even though it killed a lot of them, seducing Clovis for information); but with Anakin I think she was blind in some ways. The passion she felt confused her, and caused her to act enormously foolish, which is very human. Senate Spy showed he wasn't her first lover, but I don't think she'd ever felt quite so strongly, to the point where she'd chosen her emotions over her duty even though she knew it was a bad idea. Just what a bad idea it turned out to be must have been horrifying for her to admit.

I like your posts. I hope you don't mind if I keep commenting on them. :)
C.: cw spychameleon_irony on October 18th, 2010 09:34 pm (UTC)
On second thought, about what you said earlier about Padmé pushing Anakin away when he is the only thing she has left, I think by the time she "pushes him away", she knows she has already lost him. She rejects him because she believes he isn't the same man she loved (or the man she believed he was) - that man would never say the things Anakin is saying. When she says "You've changed", she's acknowledging this. As George Lucas puts it:

The thing that breaks Padme's heart in the end is the fact that Anakin says to her, 'Come and join me. I have all the power now. I can rule the universe and you can do it with me.' So the idea of saving her life has become a minor issue. And that's when she says, 'Wait a minute. This is not what I want and you're not the guy I fell in love with!'
- George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith, page 52.

So perhaps Padmé's character and courage in that scene isn't so much in rejecting him as it is in taking the hard path of facing the truth instead of continuing in the self-deception she had been engaging in her whole life (and in every aspect of her life including her relationship with Anakin).

I wonder if Padme's blindness didn't have to do with Anakin more than her own optimism.

You and I have to agree to disagree there. What I attribute to Padmé's personality, you attribute to Anakin's... effect on her, okay, let's put it like that. But that's overlooking the fact that her naiveté (or blindness, or excessive optimism) was never limited to Anakin. She was like that toward everyone - seeing only the best in people until she was forced to see the worst (as the Wrede novelization of Revenge of the Sith puts it).

I'm used to having this kind of debate with friends who ship A/P. :P And I certainly don't mind if you keep commenting. I always like it when people comment on my posts (and I like it no less when it's to disagree). Comes with being a future lawyer, maybe? ;)
michiru42: Pensive Padmemichiru42 on October 19th, 2010 06:53 am (UTC)
So perhaps Padmé's character and courage in that scene isn't so much in rejecting him as it is in taking the hard path of facing the truth instead of continuing in the self-deception she had been engaging in her whole life

Well, as you said, you and I disagree on how much Padmé deceives herself; I don't see her as being all that self-deceptive about most things (and I'm happy to agree to disagree).

But I totally agree that facing the truth was enormously courageous. What I meant by her having guts in pushing him away, is that she had nothing else but him at the end of RotS. To admit to herself that her life meant so little to him, that nothing meant anything to him when he was all she had left took great character. She could easily have told herself her love could save him and gone with. Facing the truth meant rejecting him; they were two parts of the same act.

I attribute Padmé's blindness as Anakin-specific because she didn't seem to have trouble doubting any SW bad guys or making split-second harsh decisions like getting Gungans killed or getting the Chancellor fired in PM; in other words, decisions having to do with her job looked cool and logical to me, even cold. Anakin was a rarity because he was decision made with her emotions, for herself, instead of for public good or for her career, so she naturally had a much harder time thinking with her head or accepting when he grew darker and darker.

That's just what I saw, though, we're all bound to interpret differently. :)
C.: tpmamidalaglarechameleon_irony on October 20th, 2010 12:27 am (UTC)
Disclaimer: everything I say below is how I personally see the movies. If it sounds like I'm censuring your interpretation, I really am not. In principle, I don't believe there has to be only one truth, one right way. I think there are as many right answers as there are people in the world.


she didn't seem to have trouble doubting any SW bad guys or making split-second harsh decisions like getting Gungans killed or getting the Chancellor fired in PM; in other words, decisions having to do with her job looked cool and logical to me, even cold. Anakin was a rarity because he was decision made with her emotions

I really disagree with that. There's nothing "cold" about her politics. Her every political decision and opinion is based on compassion. One of the reasons I think Matthew Stover's ROTS novelization is among the worst things that ever happened to Star Wars is (other than the way it perverts Anakin's personality so badly it makes it look like his turn to the dark side doesn't change much) that it makes Padmé sound like a cold and resentful person, which is far from what she's really like in the movies and in TCW.

Her dedication to duty is motivated by compassion. "The work I do – the work we both do – is in service to the Republic, to protect those who would otherwise be powerless to protect themselves", she says to Anakin in The Clone Wars: "Hostage Crisis". Her reason for being in politics is to help people who are less fortunate than her; seeing injustice makes her angry, so she tries to fix it whenever she can. She stands up for the Zillo beast in TCW: Zillo Beast Strikes Back out of compassion for what she sees as a sentient creature deprived of its freedom and free will (more on that here). Her opposition to war, too, is due to her compassion – because war causes death, suffering, and loss of freedom, and these are the things she's passionately fighting against. Did you hear her Senate speech in the AOTC deleted scene? And her speeches in TCW? There's nothing cold about them – they're all passion and compassion. The arguments she uses to justify her political positions appeal to emotion, not rationality/logic. That's the kind of politician she is.

Compassion is motivating her actions even in TPM, when she declares she "will not support a course of action that will lead us to war", and when she does lead them to war, as a last resort, it's only because by that point she believes they will all die, Naboo and Gungans, if she doesn't do it. Even Jar Jar knows it – and look at her face and eyes when he asks if she thinks the Gungans will die too and she says "I hope not". Her expression is one of compassion and sorrow, just like when she warns Boss Nass that "many Gungans could die". You can see that it breaks her heart, but she knows that if they don't do this, all of them will die, so she lets them make the choice to fight. (I think if Padmé had survived ROTS, it would have taken a lot to make her support a military rebellion. It would have taken something like Alderaan.)

And these are only a few of many examples. You mentioned her getting Valorum fired. That, too, she did out of compassion – for the people who were starving and dying at that very moment, because Palpatine had convinced her it was the only way to help them. An entire nation – two, if you count the Gungans – dying of starvation, or a politician losing his (probably outrageously well paid) job. Gee, I wonder what a compassionate person would choose?

Padmé's naiveté wasn't limited to Anakin, and neither was her compassion.

Edited at 2010-10-20 12:29 am (UTC)
michiru42: Anakin and Padmemichiru42 on October 20th, 2010 05:31 am (UTC)
I'll concede the compassion point immediately, because I also believe Padmé was driven by compassion, and completely misspoke.

What I meant was that she was able to make tough, logical, even cold, decisions when she felt the "greater good" was at stake. It was only where Anakin came in that she made decisions that were so illogical, and bad for others, such as brushing off the way he murdered the Tuskan Raiders. The sensible thing would have been to get him mental help immediately, or report his behavior, and that would have been better for everyone around him as well.

And again, the naive part I'm not seeing in her as you do. But compassion, definitely, my bad there.
C.: padme3 purple2chameleon_irony on October 20th, 2010 12:29 am (UTC)
Anakin was a rarity because he was decision made with her emotions, for herself, instead of for public good or for her career

That's another statement I disagree with. Her love for Anakin, too, was borne of compassion, as was her decision to admit that love and act on it. But you could say it was a selfish compassion in the same way you define selfish love. It was selfless on her behalf, in the sense that she wasn't doing it for herself, to honor her own needs or desires, but it was selfish in the sense that it was a caring for one person over everyone else, his needs counting more than other people's needs, and that was contrary to Padmé's usual philosophy of universal, undiscriminating Jedi-like compassion.
michiru42: Pensive Padmemichiru42 on October 20th, 2010 05:37 am (UTC)
Exactly. That's what I meant; it went against her usual philosophy to focus on one person, and it's the one time in her life that she made that sort of decision. Thus, Anakin was special. She treated him differently than everyone else and focused on him in a way she didn't on others.
C.: padme-warriorforpeacechameleon_irony on October 20th, 2010 04:49 pm (UTC)
It was only where Anakin came in that she made decisions that were so illogical, and bad for others

and it's the one time in her life that she made that sort of decision

That's not what I said. Yes, it went against her usual philosophy, but there were other times she went against her usual philosophy and not all of them were about Anakin.

I can think of at least one scene in AOTC where she made a decision that went against her principles (and ended up indirectly harming the "greater good") out of compassion for someone who wasn't Anakin. Before she was reunited with him. In fact, it's the reason she was reunited with him. Rings a bell?
michiru42: Pensive Padmemichiru42 on October 20th, 2010 08:56 pm (UTC)
Sorry if I misunderstood you. :(

But no, I'm not sure who you mean. I can think of her going to help Obi-Wan in AotC...in the beginning, she showed grief for Corde, so there was attachment there...do you mean one of those?
C.: tpm amidala1chameleon_irony on October 20th, 2010 10:12 pm (UTC)
Do you remember how Palpatine gets her to accept Jedi protection even though she believes it's "unnecessary" and an invasion of privacy? "Do it for me, please, the idea of losing you is unbearable", that's all it takes to make her stop refusing. It's almost funny, that she's naive enough to fall for that, in politics.
michiru42: Sailor Neptunemichiru42 on October 20th, 2010 11:19 pm (UTC)
Ah. I saw that scene completely differently. Later, Palpatine says she won't refuse an "order" from him, so I always figured she gave in because she knew she didn't have a choice. Palpatine said it nicely so he'd seem like a nice guy, but it was an order, and she knew it.
C.: tpm amidala1chameleon_irony on October 21st, 2010 02:59 am (UTC)
I'm familiar with the concept of an executive order in politics. What happened in that scene wasn't it at all. It has to be phrased formally, as a command, if not (usually) in writing. Then, the person has to obey or lose their job. That's how it works in this galaxy - but not in the GFFA, it seems. Even what happens later (offscreen) when he makes her return to Naboo is not it.

"I'll talk with her. She will not refuse an executive order. I know her well enough to assure you of that."

That makes it sound like she can refuse, but he's sure that she won't. If she has no choice, he wouldn't need to reassure Anakin that she won't refuse. That he does so means she has the option of refusing, and Anakin is afraid she'll choose that option. She has a choice.

Edited at 2010-10-21 03:00 am (UTC)
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michiru42: Asako: Cake or Death?michiru42 on October 24th, 2010 11:09 pm (UTC)
That's why I said I could be wrong; because I wasn't assuming, but asking. I know people can take their favorite characters personally and I like to be careful, that's all. If you say you're not annoyed, then I believe you.

Anyway, going back, I continue to disagree because I don't see Padmé showing any concern for Palpatine or worrying about his feelings, and she continues to fight his orders the whole way (covering the cameras, arguing with Obi-Wan and Anakin about needing security, etc). She seemed like a child annoyed at a parental mandate, so again, I don't think she had a choice there.

She was almost yelling at Anakin about how she hadn't come so far in leading the creation of a bill only to abandon it NOW when packing. As I see it, that's Padmé's compassion; trying to do the greatest good for the greatest number of people. I just can't see her risking something so important to make one friend feel better, even if she was closer to Palpatine than I think.
C.chameleon_irony on October 25th, 2010 02:14 am (UTC)
It was obvious that she didn't agree and she was angry about it both times. Like Captain Typho says, she's not good at following orders. She warns Obi-Wan and Anakin that she believes their presence is "unnecessary" – but the fact that she (grudgingly) tolerates it, despite her anger and general stubbornness, speaks volumes. When she's packing her suitcase, again, she says angrily she doesn't like "this idea of hiding", but when she and Anakin are on Naboo, she seems to enjoy herself and we don't see her sulking or worrying about what might be happening on Coruscant. She's not that angry about it – and, okay, this is a guess based on clues in her expression, but when she says wryly that "all mentors have a way of seeing more of our faults than we'd like; it's the only way we grow", she's expressing her own feelings at that moment as much as she's awkwardly trying to show Anakin that she understands his conflicted anger/respect for Obi-Wan. The expression on her face is the same one she has at the end of the office scene (when she nods at Mace Windu).

See, this is how I see Padmé's compassion: it's of two kinds, and sometimes the two are in conflict. There's the abstract, ideological compassion - a kind of missionary sense of duty toward the people of the galaxy, and then there's the immediate, personal kind. I don't think, like some people do, that one excludes the other. I think her caring for the galaxy's people is part of a generally compassionate nature and a natural extension of it. Logically, it has to be. I don't buy into the theory that her personality lacks that kind of coherence and that she cares only about the "greater good" while being coldly indifferent on an individual and personal level (in her relationships with colleagues and friends). Besides, this is proven wrong through her behavior with Anakin even before she falls in love with him.

RE Assassin: no, I haven't seen it, but I can't wait until I'll be able to see it. The reviews I've read say it's one of the best CW episodes ever. The reason I'm not watching this season is because TCW inspires me so much, which is the last thing I need when I'm trying to do well at school.

Edited at 2010-10-25 02:15 am (UTC)
michiru42: Pensive Padmemichiru42 on October 25th, 2010 05:34 am (UTC)
Ideological compassion doesn't exclude personal compassion, and I totally agree Padmé's not cold. However, when professional/personal came into conflict, duty came first. That's why abandoning her senate bill to make Palpatine feel better when it was in a crucial period isn't something I can see her doing; not because she's not compassionate, but because the bill was too important, with too many lives at stake.

(I do think that Padmé was inexperienced and uncomfortable with personal relationships where she has no control and is equal with someone. Like you said, she was always good at showing compassion. But letting others in to her own heart, as an equal, with no control, where they could hurt her or disrupt her duty? I think that scared her horribly at first, though she loosened up by movie three. But that's a whole different argument, and also doesn't mean she doesn't care about people personally, because she certainly does.)

When you do see Assassin, I'd love to hear what you think if you feel like writing. You wrote such an insightful review of Senate Spy.
C.: tatooine suns smallchameleon_irony on October 26th, 2010 02:25 am (UTC)
when professional/personal came into conflict, duty came first

not because she's not compassionate, but because the bill was too important, with too many lives at stake.


The problem with that argument is that it overestimates the first kind of compassion I described - the abstract caring about "the people" - as opposed to the second kind, while we see in canon that they are at least equally strong in Padmé's personality. After Cordé dies in her arms, she says "I should not have come back", and Typho has to remind her that the vote is important. In the face of the real and immediate suffering of a person, she forgets about all the nameless people whom she's trying to help by being in politics. There is something compulsive and almost pathological about her compassion. We see this at its clearest when she takes Anakin into her arms and tells him that to be angry is to be human after he confesses to killing "them all", including children, "like animals", and hating them still even though they're already dead (which denotes a lack of regret). A normal person would be disturbed by the words he says in that scene - but Padmé is so fixated on the pain he is displaying, his tears, his obvious grief over his mother that she "forgets" to extend some of her compassion to the beings he killed, some of whom - the children, at least - had to have been innocent. From there, it shouldn't be too problematic to extrapolate that she would be swayed by Palpatine's well-feigned worry and fear of her death.

When you do see Assassin, I'd love to hear what you think if you feel like writing. You wrote such an insightful review of Senate Spy.

Thanks. When an episode inspires me, I tend to write fic, then meta, but I don't think I'll ever write such a detailed analysis again. Most of the things I've had to say about CW Padmé have been already said.
michiru42: Sailor Neptunemichiru42 on October 26th, 2010 05:36 am (UTC)
Well, in that case it's just down to our individual interpretations. I saw her reaction to Cordé as a moment of shock--and, of course, grief--not something she would have let sway her decisions once she'd recovered. As for Anakin, I saw that as denial, that she couldn't yet admit to herself that she'd fallen in love with a psychopath.

But I can't prove it to you, it's just what I saw in her personality. :)
michiru42: Maa-chan and Kashimichiru42 on October 24th, 2010 11:12 pm (UTC)
(And BTW, did you see "Assassin"? I loved it--what did you think?)
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